A pretty costly message, it has always seemed to me.

While we are talking to Israelis we might bring up the USS Liberty incident. If your unfamiliar let me bullet point this
* USS intelligence ship is in operation off the coast of Gaza in daylight.
* Israeli MTB’s (Motor Torpedo Boats that we gave them) attack the ships and really shoot it up.
* We have about 40 dead kids and a crippled ship.
* The Israeli MTB call for Air support because they are under “Enemy” fire.
*The Israeli fighters make several strafing runs.
* We now have more dead and injured.
*Israel says they never knew it was an American ship.
*The ship flew a Large American flag.
*All US ships have huge white letters and numbers on the Bow(pointy end of the ship and the Stern (butt end)
* Entire crew was threatened with court martial if anyone ever spoke of the incident.

Think its time to speak out?

Joe Hinds

1. Public Support For “Cast Lead.”

Not being present on the ground, and not fully trusting the competence level of reporting on the situation in our own media (I cannot recall even hearing the word “Refusenik” spoken in any US-broadcast news story about Israeli politics – ever), I am dependent on correspondents in Israel (such as yourself) on this. But I stand by my remarks which were, to the best of my knowledge, factually correct. To most audiences the fact than a demonstration of that size took place is genuine (and unreported) news. Did a large majority of Israeli citizens support the war? Yes. And I did not deny it nor suggest otherwise. But was, and is, the support less than what it was reported over here – which is to say unanimous? Again yes.

2. “As Arabs, we can presume that they know how to deal with (Moslem groups). Do you agree with that?”

No. Categorically No.

I reject the entire idea that one ethnic or cultural group “knows,” on either some instinctive or acquired level, how to “deal with its own.” History provides so many examples — so depressingly many examples — of that argument used to justify the most monstrous treatment of human beings that I am appalled it endures.

No.

3. “Your claim that Israel is “responsible” for the growth of Hamas ignores the fact that such groups have been gaining popularity throughout the Moslem world for decades, well before the founding of Hamas.”

No it doesn’t. The component groups which formed Hamas were growing before the formal creation of Hamas, as I mentioned, and were nurtured by Israeli policy, often deliberately. And of course that you cannot deny. It is true the weeds of violent Islamic extremism have taken root many places. That does not excuse fertilizing and watering them in Israel.

4. Credit Where It Is Due

This whole very defensive passage suggests to me that you have misunderstood my column. You seem to take it as an attack on the worthiness of Israel to exist as a state. Where did that come from? If I did not consider Israel worth preserving, I would have just written about something else. When people tell you they are afraid you are headed for trouble, that doesn’t man they think you are horrible, worthless people. When they tell you to go to the devil and change the channel, that’s when they have stopped liking you.

5. “The only way these groups can be marginalized is for their secular alternatives (the Palestinian Authority) to offer a better path forward for their people.”

Very true. But they cannot offer a better way forward on their own, since all non-violent solutions require the active cooperation and support of the Israeli government, and “plucked chicken” remarks do nothing to raise the confidence of the Palestinian people that such results will be forthcoming.

Israel still has the PLO as a potential peace partner (even though it has spent a fair chunk of the last forty years trying to stamp “the secular alternative” out of existence). So long as the PLO remains committed to the possibility of a two-state solution, there is some hope. But faith in the two-state solution is fading, even within the PLO leadership. If the PLO gives up on a two-state solution and becomes seriously committed to the one-state solution, Israel is left with some pretty awkward choices, don’t you think? I certainly thing so. So if I lived in Tel Aviv, I’d probably be writing and phoning my Knesset guys to get really serious about helping the PLO regain some political muscle on the ground, instead iof trying to emasculate them.

But that’s just me.

1. Operation Cast Lead was wildly popular with the Israeli public at the time of the 10,000-person demonstration you cite. And though it has become less popular since it ended, that’s because it didn’t completely achieve its goal: the cessation of rocket attacks on Israeli cities (almost no Israelis believed that Hamas could be destroyed).

2. You criticize Israel for not taking tougher action against Hamas during the first 20 years of its existence, during which time it was non-violent, yet you excoriate Israel for persecuting non-violence. Clearly those positions are contradictory.

Maybe Israel should learn how to deal with radical Moslem groups from Arab countries such as Egypt. As Arabs, we can presume they know how to deal with them. Do you agree with that? Do you know how Egypt has dealt with the Muslim Brotherhood, progenitors of Hamas?

3. Your claim that Israel is “responsible” for the growth of Hamas ignores the fact that such groups have been gaining popularity throughout the Moslem world for decades, well before the founding of Hamas.

4. If you want to talk about “results,” fine; I just ask that you give credit where credit is due. To that end, we need a bit of context. It’s interesting to compare the fate of Israel’s Jewish population with that of other minorities in the region. Who’s done better than us?

The Christians? Look at how they’re doing in the Palestinian territories, Egypt, Lebanon, and Iraq.

The Kurds? Only recently, and only due to the US military, have they been able to stop worrying about somebody gassing them to death.

The Kuwaitis? Again, it’s only due to the US military that they survived.

The Bahai in Iran? Heartbreaking.

As you see, this is a tough neighborhood.

And now Israel. History shows that Israel has achieved its desired “result” for not just 40 years, but 60: we have survived. And even thrived. Plus we have two long-lasting peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, leaving only Lebanon (where a peace treaty was signed but the president who signed it assassinated by the Syrian dictator, Assad), and Syria and the Palestinians (both recently in serious negotiations). In Middle-Eastern terms, that’s rapid progress indeed.

Look at where Israel is today, and compare it to where we were as recently as a few decades ago, when we were fighting for our physical existence. Those are “results”.

5. What really blocks progress to peace now are the Palestian terror groups, chiefly Hamas. As long as these groups have the power to disrupt the process, they will. The only way these groups can be marginalized is for their secular alternatives (the Palestinian Authority) to offer a better path forward for their people. Until that happens, those terror groups have to be contained. And that means cutting them off from their source of power: Iran.

Notice that the U.S. strongly supports Israel while merely supporting the peace process.

These five members of the House voted with their conscience. No surprises here:

Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio
Gwen Moore, D-Wisconsin
Ron Paul, R-Texas
Nick Rahall, D-West Virginia
Maxine Waters, D-California

You might remember that Kucinich and Paul both ran for president this past media circus and were marginalized by the ringmaster.